Peace Pilgrim at Unity Church in New Port Ritchie, Fla., 1973

Part II

Transcripts Index  ||  Peace Pilgirm Home


[Continued from Part I ]

Will we have a few questions now or will we wait?

We have a good half an hour for questions.

Oh, do we run until twelve? I thought we just ran until 11:3O. All right. That's wonderful and then we'll have some more questions at 1:3O after we've had our lunch together. Don't forget the steps toward inner peace in outline form are available and will be sent to you if you put your name on my mailing list. It will be sent free of charge. Let's share together then for the next beautiful half hour. Who has the first question?

Q: I'd like to start it out to stimulate others to ask questions. I have a lot of admiration or a lot of respect for your teachings on non-resistance. I know the premise of your teaching is to overcome evil with good, otherwise known as non-resistance. And I thought you might like to explain that a little bit for the benefit of others that might not have been here yesterday - how this might be done in a practical way. For instance, it seems inconceivable to a lot of us here that the philosophy of turning the other cheek so to speak or returning good for evil seems incomprehensible to some that this is a practical way to live and I know you have some experiences there that you might like to share with us again.

Of course it is a practical way to live. In fact it is the only practical way to live. Sometimes in the colleges they argue over whether my way is idealistic or realistic. And I say to them, it is both. Because an idealist lives up to the highest light he has and if you're a realist you would also live up to the highest light you have. Anything else would just bring disaster into your own life. So you see if we really understand these things we will see that what I do is practical, realistic, as well as idealistic.

Q: I was thinking of that particular experience you had with the child and the man who was about to harm the child.

I can retell that story but let me preface it by saying that it can easily be understood in this context. After all, think of this as person to person reaction. Suppose I come to you hating you and fearing you and distrusting you and armed against you. What happens to you? Unless you are a very exceptional person it reaches the worst in you and you respond badly. Too often groups, nations, face one another in this manner. Reaching the worst in one another. This is because of their immaturity of course. But suppose I was to come to you in a kindly manner, in a friendly spirit, in a loving fashion, ready to help you in any way I could. Then you would discover that you couldn't harm me because the good within you would prevent it. This is the way to get along with people. This is the way of peace. When it has been applied group to group or nation to nation, it has worked. The trouble is it is seldom applied group to group or nation to nation. Occasionally it is applied individual to individual and when it is it works.

Now Paul wanted me to retell the story of the little eight year old girl. Perhaps my severest test. I was telling about some tests yesterday when I was telling pilgrimage experiences and I said that if you pass your tests you look back upon them as a good experience so I'm not complaining about any of them. I'll tell about another of my experiences tomorrow morning...(tells story)

This is the way to get along with people. This is the way of peace. After all this was said over and over again by Jesus and by other religious leaders. But taking it from the words of Jesus, "Be not overcome of evil but overcome evil with good." What have we been doing? We people of the world in our immaturity have been attempting to overcome evil with more evil and we have multiplied the evil. What else did Jesus say? "Resist not one who is evil but if a man smite thee on the right cheek turn to him the other also." I had the opportunity to do that one time too. And it worked of course. What else did he say? "love your enemy. Bless them that curse you. Do good to them that hate you."

This is exactly what we are going to be talking about tomorrow. This is going to be our subject for tomorrow morning. We're going to apply this to the outer level.

However, let me just, for those of you who will not be there tomorrow morning, say very briefly that actually in working for inner peace I am also working for world peace. There's more than one way to work for world peace.

There's world peace through world law. In other words just as the smaller units, the states, gave up to the larger unit, the United States, the right to make war, so the small units, the nations, can give up to the larger unit, the United Nations, I hope a very much improved United Nations, one single right which is the right to make war.

Then there are those who would be working on more peaceful examples for the little ones which is a very effective of working for peace.

And then there is my way. My way is to try to inspire as many as possible to find as much inner peace as possible so they will be peaceful people and peace makers. This is very valid. Look ahead to the time when enough of us have found enough inner peace to effect for the better our institutions. The institution of education, the political institution, the institution of radio and television. Then the bettered institutions will through better example, affect for the better all who are still immature. And until we come to that point peace will not be stabilized in our world. So perhaps the most important way to work for world peace is to work for the attainment of more inner peace.

Q: I missed the part you talked about in the beginning.

You missed the part I said on self will? I said the most effective way to work on, actually you might say subordinating the self centered nature is to refrain from doing all of the not good things you may be motivated toward. Not suppressing or expressing, but transforming them using the energy somehow constructively. That's what I said.

Q: How do you feel toward conscientious objectors?

Very loving of course. You see in every culture one discovers there are a few who are, you might say, are ahead of their time. They realize that violence accomplishes nothing and they refuse to commit violence. Now I'm talking about the real conscientious objector. I heard one say a while back, you see, because he was a Quaker, could have been considered a conscientious objector at that time, but he had two friends who didn't belong to any denomination and at that time could not be considered conscientious objectors. And he would not take an exemption that they could not have. So he was also sentenced to prison. And I heard him sentenced. He was a fine young man who had worked actually in service in the ghetto areas and was a very fine young man. Everybody knew that. And the judge who sentenced him did so very reluctantly. He said, "I know that nothing I could say would change you. And I would not change you if I could. You are the man of the future and in you dwells the hope of a better world to come." I thought that was simply beautiful. You see the judge also realized that in the future this is the way young men would think. We just hadn't quite progressed that far yet.

Perhaps you recognize what a large percentage of the young men did refuse induction toward the end. In fact it was as much as 68% apparently that refused induction and that was in the war in Viet Nam. I personally credit the people of this country with having brought this war to a close. Because it was their constant insistence that brought it to a close I understand. Although I understand also that at the time of that intensive bombing over the Christmas holidays half a dozen nations refused to let out ships into their harbors and one of them even refused to receive our mail. In other words the world was beginning in a sense to boycott the circumstances. We had no idea of the unpopularity of that war elsewhere in the world. We know it was unpopular here but it was even more unpopular elsewhere in the world.

So yes, I have met some of them. God bless them. I say also, these are men of the future. Do you remember that song, "These things shall be, a loftier race than ever the world has known shall rise, with flame of freedom in their souls and light of courage in their eyes. They shall be gentle, kind and strong, to spill no drop of blood but dare all that may plant God's lordship firm in earth and fire and sea and air." Don't you know that song, "Nation to nation, land with land, unarmed shall live as comrades free, in every heart and soul shall throb the pulse of one divinity, these things shall be.

Whether after extreme destruction and a new beginning or whether we will move toward them now, this is up to us. We now walk a knife edge between complete destruction and a golden age which we cannot now even imagine. This is a time of crisis in the world, a time of great crisis. And everyone living in the world today is making this choice because the tide of world affairs, the trend of things, still drift in the direction of war and destruction. So those who do nothing are choosing to let things drift toward destruction. And those who want to choose peace and a better way of life must do something meaningful in that direction, must become a part of this wonderful stirring and awakening in the direction of peace which has begun and is accelerating and help to accelerate sufficiently to turn the tide.

At one time in the middle ages, out of the dark ages, came the renaissance. The tide turned. It can turn. Of course we have come through a dark age. We're still in it but again the tide can turn. A new renaissance can come out of our dark age. And they are pioneers in this direction. I hope many of us are pioneers in this direction. That the conflict in the world today is between those who believe that you can overcome evil with more evil and are busy multiplying the evil and those who believe as I do that you can only overcome evil with good. It's between those who believe that the end justifies the means and those who believe that the means shape the end. The means determines the end, and only a good means can accomplish a good end.

How many of you are with me on this? How many believe that only a good means can accomplish a good end? Why God bless you! Practically everyone in the room. Wonderful! Put it into practice in all walks of life. It works! It sure does.

Q: What is your opinion on the population explosion?

The population explosion? I am not as concerned about it as some are. This is because I'm a deeply religious woman you see and believe there is some control over these things from a source outside of us. But to discuss it from an angle that one might if one was concerned about it, the population in this country, the birth rate in this country, has not increased in the last few years as you probably know. And I associate it a great deal with college people, college professors, college students, many of the college students are American. And I note the attitude of the young people. In some places it is downright unpopular to have more than your share of children, two is the most you can have and be considered not greedy you see.

Why I stayed at the home of a man who had nine children and he said his colleagues in the factory considered him a very greedy, unthinking person that he had so many more than his share of children. So it's not popular anymore in many circles to have more than two children. That's it. Some only have one and some don't have any. I was staying with a minister and his wife and they had six and he said, "Now remember only two of these are our children, the other four, because we could afford to do so, we have adopted. They were born anyway and we just decided to give them a home. Only two of these are ours." So this is being taken care of by popular opinion, apparently to a great extent.

Then I would add this other little note. That we can feed a much greater population than we have. But in order to feed them we would have to become vegetarian. You see it takes ten or twenty times as much land to raise the creature and eat the creature as to raise the vegetable or the fruit and eat that. So if population does increase maybe it would push a greater number of people into becoming vegetarians. But since I've been a vegetarian for thirty years I know it's no great hardship. Therefore you see, I wouldn't be so concerned about that. So there's just a few little things on that. This is a question that one might discuss for an hour or so if one really wanted to go deeply into it. But I think there's a few more questions and we only have a few more minutes.

Q: How did you decide to become a vegetarian?

Oh yes, I mentioned this yesterday. I have a rule of life that I will not ask anyone to do my dirty work for me. I would not kill the creature. I would not kill a chicken. I would not kill a fish and therefore I will not eat the flesh of any creature. Now I suspect if you had to kill it you'd stop eating meat. I suspect half the people in this room would if they had to kill it. I couldn't imagine some of you killing a cow, for instance, who looks at you with its gentle eyes. And a lamb. Imagine killing a lamb.

You know I know a man in Chicago, he just visited a slaughter house because it was his custom to visit the various factories in his neighborhood and there was a slaughter house near them so he visited the slaughter house and he came back a vegetarian. He said they were killing lambs and they kill pigs and any small animals this way, only cows are hit over the head, only the big beef animals, but anyhow he said they lasso one back foot and its gets pulled up on a belt line hanging by one back foot and then of course its throat is cut and so on. And he said they cry like babies. I just saw him the last time I went through Chicago and he's never eaten meat again. A thing like that sometimes has a significant affect on people.

Q: I want to know what your experience has been with young people, they call themselves Jesus Christ people.

I have never felt there was anything new about them. They remind me of the followers of Billy Sunday of my time. You see this is not a new experience with them. They're very like the followers of Billy Sunday. The new thing that has come into the youth movement is not this, this is not a new thing, it's a very old thing. The new thing is the youth awakening which is not necessarily denominational at all. It's religious, deeply religious, but not denominational. That's the new thing that has come into the youth movement.

Q: In regard to the vegetarian situation, suppose everybody became a vegetarian, what would happen to all of the animals?

They would no longer be raised for food. YOu see, actually, as far as the animals are concerned, they have been bred for beef animals and so on. They originally were not as they are now. You take the chicken, it was a prairie hen, she didn't lay eggs constantly, she only laid eggs maybe once a year to hatch out young ones. This would happen very gradually. You can't imagine this happening quickly, it would be an extremely gradual thing and the animals would just no longer be raised for these purposes.

And if you understand the evolvement of souls, you understand that the animals we eat are evolving souls. If you understand this, not all of you do perhaps, but if you do you understand this too. Then our evolution would no longer be so interfered with that we were destroying the life forms of these evolved souls. It's only the animal nature, it's true, that's evolving, but nevertheless. What is the saying, "The earth of the field and the fruit of the tree, this I give thee for food." And then it says we are given dominion over the creatures of the earth, but it doesn't say we have to be their butchers, we could be the keepers of our lesser brothers. We could be. It's possible.

This wouldn't happen quickly. No one need be concerned about this because this would happen very gradually. At the levels of maturity where we now operate we couldn't expect this to happen very quickly.

Q: What about the animals, cats and dogs that are used for experimental purposes?

Well I'm not in favor of that either.

Q: But there's so little done against it.

There are in some places great efforts to alleviate this situation.

Q: I belong to that organization and always donate to it.

Do you? Well God bless you. This is a very good direction in which to be working. And let me tell you something else about cats and dogs. Some people say, "Well they eat flesh." I have met vegetarian dogs and vegetarian cats. They have to have protein of course, but it doesn't have to be flesh. I have actually met an Irish Setter for instance, a female Irish Setter who was 2O years old and sweet and playful. That dog was a vegetarian since it was taken from its mother and never fed flesh.

Here's another thing about this. The Russian circus that came over had a lot of lions and tigers in it, and to everyone's amazement, those lions and tigers were not eating any flesh of any kind. So when they questioned the people at the circus those people said, "Well, but they'd be too vicious to work with if we were feeding them flesh. That's why we feed them other food. We want them to be gentle enough to work with."

Another thing, there was a prize fighter in England and maybe you've heard this story of the prize fighter in England. His trainer made him real vicious in the ring by every time, while he was going through the training period, his trainer would go to the slaughter house and bring him bowls of fresh blood to drink. And he became real vicious, he had a chip on his shoulder and he looked for every little insult, and he was real vicious. And then at that time he put him in the ring you see. He watched him at that time. He knew what was happening. One time he got out on the street in this condition, and a boy about twelve or so I guess, he thought that the boy jeered him, and he pounced on the boy and he nearly killed him. And he was so horrified at what he had done that he became a vegetarian. He would never touch flesh again because he knew this is what had made him vicious enough to do a thing like pouncing on that boy.

So actually what you're working for is fine. I certainly commend you. I take it you are a fellow vegetarian because I guess you wouldn't logically be working in that direction unless you yourself had refrained from eating flesh. Because you know what they do in the slaughter house is just as bad as what they do in the experiment and so naturally I take it that you're probably a fellow vegetarian. I think we have a few fellow vegetarians in this room. I know we have one right down here because she said she was the other day. You are too? Yes you see, we have a few.

So why don't I preach vegetarianism more? Well it's because we haven't even learned not to kill each other yet. That's why I realize we're probably far from a step like this. Your a vegetarian too? I commend you. We're the pioneers and there

must be pioneers in every field there are a few pioneers and pioneers have a difficult time. People look down on them you see. Their families worry about them, "How are you going to get enough protein without eating flesh" and so on. Look since I've been a vegetarian for 3O years and since I can walk 5O miles in a day and I've done it, you know very well it doesn't interfere with your strength. I can tell people, nobody can tell me you get weak.

Any of you who are interested in great spiritual growth, not everybody is, but those of you who are interested in great spiritual growth, eventually you're going to have to cut out eating flesh. It's one of the physical blocks to spiritual attainment. It's that simple. You're going to have to cut out not only the addicting substances like alcohol, nicotine, caffeine and so on, you're also going to have to cut out anything highly seasoned and all flesh, if you really are interested in really great spiritual attainment you're going to have to do this. Don't let it trouble you, you see. But I just mentioned it for those few of you among you who might be interested in great spiritual attainment.

But most people don't seem interested in going that far, so let them go as far as they can in this earth life. After all, there's something more after this earth life. We all know that I guess. I don't think there's anybody in the room who thinks life ends with the earth life. I don't think there's anybody in this room, you wouldn't be interested in a meeting like this if you thought life ended with the earth life. We might divide a little in our perception of exactly what comes beyond and so on. But I think we believe there is something beyond.

Q: Returning good for evil, I thought you might talk a little on how that would relate to things in our society like crime. In other words how would we handle crime with that great and beautiful principle of returning good for evil and also in raising children. You know the result of what has been termed the over permissiveness in our culture in recent years. I thought you might relate those two ideas a little more closely in that principle.

In the first place, taking them separately, as to crime, what will the next steps be if we progress. Well, remember that in getting from where you are to where you want to be there are quite a lot of steps you have to go through. Now I think the next step will be things like this: The policemen will no longer carry lethal weapons. Because you see, as long as the policemen are capable of killing they are feared. And what you fear you hate. And so it's a very bad situation. Now if the policemen are very apprehensive and do not want to go as they do in England for instance, with merely a night stick, why they have mace and tear gas and even tranquilizer darts, which do not kill but which do mobilize.

Now another next step as far as dealing with these people who offend against the best interest of their fellow human beings, will be that the prisons will become hospitals for the rehabilitation for these people. Not punishment, rehabilitation. I have talked to some young folks who have been in prison for hitch-hiking. They went in for hitch-hiking, they had never been in prison before, they came out knowing how to forge a check and how to rob a bank. In other words prisons are schools of crime. Of course this is a thing which is greatly to be deplored. So I would say the prisons must emphasize the rehabilitation of the psychologically sick person who is able to offend against the best interests of their fellow human beings. And the whole concentration would be rehabilitation.

Now I learned, and I learned this first from a New York judge that had gone to Russia, that in Russia they do not break the family pattern. If a man is put into prison every once in awhile his entire family comes into the family house and he goes into the family house to be with them, so he can see his children grow up and he is associated with his wife every once in awhile so he doesn't get out of touch with his wife and with his family. (tape skips)

...Instead of being about his Father's business he hangs around saloons waiting for the first alcoholic to take his first drink and then he's got him. In other words an alcoholic opens himself to possession after the first drink. And so then he has drinking experience through this alcoholic. After all it's not only alcohol. Have you ever seen a chain smoker who lights one cigarette from the butt of another. And have you ever seen a compulsive eater who just can't stop eating. I saw one once, he was a teenage boy. Just think of all the things that you can't have without a body and those are the things that the ones in the desire realms are desiring and of course attempting to influence people on this side so that they can have a body to drink through or whatever it is that they are desiring.

There is of course progress on the other side. I think that's one of the next break throughs we're going to make, the breakthrough to the realization that life continues beyond the earth life, that there is continuing progress beyond the earth life. At first it may not be a seeing that eventually we will return into a body, but it may just be a seeing that there will be progress from realm to realm on the unembodied side and this is true also - there is progress from realm to realm on the unembodied side.

Now one of the best things if you are in contact with an unembodied being, one of the best things you can tell them to do is to ask for a teacher because just as soon as they do one is available to them. Now I understand that in "correct practice" is to say "leave, depart from here" but I couldn't say that to an embodied person and I can't say it to an unembodied person, so what I say to them is "Ask for a teacher." Are you all familiar with what a medium is? A medium of course permits possession and she or he has protection in that he or she has a gate keeper on the other side, the unembodied side, who keeps the worst of the entities from coming in, but occasionally one of them gets in in spite of everything. And you see I'm asked to come and speak at these places. Some mediums only operate for ten or fifteen minutes and you can't get people together for ten or fifteen minutes, you need more time than that and so they have a speaker besides and I'm asked to come there as a speaker. Now I am in no danger because I have my protection now, so I go there and speak. And I once saw some entities get to a man in that seance circle. He had something comparable to a seizure. I remember I went over and put my hand on his shoulder and he came out of it because after you have your protection through inner peace, the not good unembodied entities can't get that close to you. The embodied person can but the unembodied entity cannot get that close and cannot come into your protective surrounding.

What I was going to tell you about, all of a sudden through this medium came a voice, a man's voice, and this was a woman, but a man's voice cussing a blue streak and everybody in that seance circle was just terrified. So I said to him, "There is much to learn where you are. Why don't you ask for a teacher." Stopped. That was the end of that. But then I was supposed to speak two Saturday nights there and the next Saturday night I went back again and they held their little about ten minutes it lasted, she was a trance medium, but it didn't last long, and they held their little seance and in came the same voice and he spoke very quickly and he said, "They won't let me stay long, I just wanted to tell you that I've asked for a teacher and I'm learning."

Therefore I have used this in several other instances. For instance the chair that rocked in the night. Obviously that chair was inhabited by some entity who was earth bound and who was just sticking to that house in stead of being about his father's business. I did exactly the same thing with that. I remember I saw a woman sit down in that chair one day and she jumped up as though she had sat on a tack. I went over to that chair and I talked to the entity and I sat down in the chair and I said exactly the same thing to that entity. "You're missing so much. There's a lot to learn where you are. Why don't you ask for a teacher." Lo and behold that chair has never rocked in the night again. He was the little man who had died in the house, he used to live there. That was his chair, she had taken it and fixed it up, upholstered it and put it into her living room. That was the story of that chair.

And then there was another one, another chair. There was a chair that was the most beautiful oriental carved chair - I would say Chinese. Beautiful carving. Nobody liked that chair. It was beautiful but there was something about it that people didn't like. Of course I knew right away what it was. It was the man who had spent the last years of his life carving that chair. He was protecting it. He was possessive of it. I did the same thing exactly. I admired the chair and then said the same thing to him and you know she's got that chair down in the living room now and she's made a cushion for it and people sit in it. YOu see I think really that's the kindest thing to say to them, just remind them that as soon as they ask for a teacher it will be provided and they can get out of those desire realms, those lower psychic realms.

Anyway, now there's so much, this is a new subject we've opened here, there's so much to say. But I think we also should ***talk about this: The different ways we perceive what happens beyond the earth life. For instance, some perceive there is nothing before but something after, and I'm afraid this is true of a great many of those who call themselves Christians and I understand Muslims have that concept also, nothing before but something after. Frankly, there are those who meet together in churches who don't even believe there's something after. The Unitarians, I'm not trying to say this unlovingly, the Unitarians, some of the Jewish people, it's just their frame of reference is this kind of frame of reference. Then there are those like the Mormons, and I met the Mormons and I spoke with the Mormons, they believe you come from plane number 1, that's the before life, into plane number 2 which is the earth life and then go to plane number 3 which is the life beyond the earth life and it's not the same as plane number one. It's quite different you see. Now this is not reincarnation, and yet it's a belief in both the before and the after.

Then there are those and most of the people in the world believe this way, there are those who believe that there are two sides of life, the unembodied and the embodied and that you go from one to the other until all of the earth lessons are finally learned. In other words let's say it this way, I'm a spirit, that's the spark of God within me, the divine nature, it is wearing what is sometimes called the soul, the self-centered nature sometimes called the animal nature and wearing the body. But when I go on I slip off only the body. I'm still the spirit wearing the soul until I have learned all the earth lessons then I sluff off the soul too and go in pure spirit to the spiritual realm from which I no longer embody unless I come back as an avatar which is very, very rare. Now I talked a little about this, though really we've just scratched the surface, but we have talked a little bit about it.

You can see now, did any of you hear of this phenomenon called talking in tongues or (glothilalea)? See people that I would think would know better sometimes get mixed up in these things. This can be two things. It can of course be possession and most of it is. If you're ever desiring phenomena what you get is possession. In other words an unembodied being is using your body to climb pillars or roll around the floor or dance or whatever it is and speaking in its tongue whatever its tongue may be. This is not to be desired obviously, possession. It's just deadly you see to desire phenomena instead of desiring God and there's a great many people in mental hospitals who trying to get rid of this phenomena of talking in tongues. A great many of them, disturbed people I used to work with, some of them talked in tongues.

This is the common thing. But this can be another thing too. It can be recall. Now in this case, you have not desired it, it has merely come upon you without any desire whatsoever for it, it has just come upon you. I'll give you an example of this. In Montana a woman asked if I would have lunch with her. We were alone for lunch in her house and I could see immediately she had a problem. She was a Methodist woman, she was an intelligent woman, she was a teacher and she had a contract to teach the next year. And she said, "I haven't even told my husband this because I feel I'm losing my mind and I just don't know how to tell him." She knew what I knew, that they do this at mental hospitals. And she said, "let me tell you what happened to me." And she told me this story:

She had had a problem which she couldn't find a solution for. She went into her Methodist church and she went to the alter and she knelt at the alter where she had knelt for communion many times. Methodists kneel at their own alter for communion. And she said, no one was there she was alone, and she said, "I perceived the answer to my problem and I wanted to thank God and I found myself speaking in a language which I did not understand." And of course she was terrified because she thought her mind was leaving, she thought she was losing her mind. And I said, "Don't worry about it. It won't hurt you and it may never happen again. "But," she said, "explain it to me. What happened to me." And I said, "Yes, I can explain it but not in the Methodist frame of reference, I would have to go beyond that frame of reference."

And of course I had to open her horizons so she knew there was a before as well as an after and then I said, "All right, now it's easy to explain and I'll first explain it in earth terms. Suppose you had lived in Europe and had learned to operate in some European language. But then you came to the United States and you learned to operate in English and under ordinary situations you would operate in English. But under extenuating circumstances you might revert to the language which you once spoke and that's all you did. It won't hurt you. You may never have that experience again, you didn't desire it." You see what we need to avoid is any desire for phenomena. This is deadly. Our only desire should be for God and then if such a thing does happen it would not in any way harm you. It would not be possession it would be recall. That's quite a bit about this topic.

Q: Could you tell us about the affect that Pentecostal people go through when they let themselves be open to this.

Yes, I can tell you about an actual meeting I attended. Have any of you ever seen a Pentecostal meeting? A few of you have, haven't you. I saw what would have been considered a good example of it I think. I was taken into this huge church, it was a barn like affair, and the roof was supported by eight pillars. There was four on each end supporting the roof. At the height of that, why some of them were rolling or .... on the floor and some were dancing with their hands over their heads in a kind of jerky motion. And some were climbing the pillars. In fact there was one on each pillar and two on some pillars which one had to be very high up on that pillar. You should have seen them go up those those pillars. They weren't that easy to climb. Have you ever tried climbing a pillar. But they could, apparently, with great ease some of them. Some of them were speaking in a language which nobody could understand. I was there with five college professors who were linguists, that's why we were there. They just took me along, I'm not a linguist myself. Some were speaking in a language none of them could understand and I said to them, "Well, do you understand all the languages that are spoken in Africa?" And of course they didn't. There are many languages that even linguists don't really understand. Some were speaking in a language that they didn't understand. There was a woman right in front of us, you see we couldn't hear everybody, that's another thing, they naively thought you would be able to hear everything that was said. They thought they were going to speak in an orderly fashion, one after the other so you could easily hear everything that was said and of course it was nothing like that at all. It was simply bedlam. And except for those right in front of you, you couldn't hear at all what language they were using. But there was one woman right in front of us who was speaking in a language that we could understand. At least one of the professors sitting beside me said, "She's speaking German. I understand every word she's saying." And a man jumped up from along the edges, he was interpreting, and he said she was praising God, and the professor said, "She is not. She's bawling somebody out." She was saying (German) you could tell she wasn't praising God. Then there was a man speaking British English and I said, "This is strange because they use very bad grammar, those that I've heard speak." But I talked to the woman who spoke German and the man who spoke British English. Why he used very bad grammar and the woman couldn't speak a word of German. They were actually speaking in a language they couldn't speak in their waking state. This was possession of course. Everything with extreme motion is possession.

What bothered me most was what they were doing to the children off in the corner. They were trying to make them talk in unknown tongues. They were slapping them on the back and the children were crying and I wondered if I shouldn't do something about that but you see what can you really do. It's their children, I mean it's not something you can really do anything about, I just felt like doing something about the children. After all the adults were there of their own accord, but those poor kids. I saw a real good or bad, whatever you want to call it, example of what this is like. And then I've met a lot of victims of it. A lot of those I worked with, disturbed people, had been in these extremely unstabilizing groups who talked in tongues and things like that.

It's a very unstabilizing thing. Of course I naturally evaluating by groups I would warn people to stay away from such things. Well I would warn them not to sit in development classes under mediums either, as far as that goes. I would say, don't attempt any psychic communication because the least evolved are the most anxious to make communication and they'll give any name to get your attention. So I would warn against all attempts at psychic communication. If it comes without your attempting it, it will not harm you. But if you make an attempt in that direction your apt to get something that isn't good.

Q: What explanation can you have when a person in their dreams speaks to the spirits - I often have them come in my dreams.

This is very simple. You never completely depart from the unembodied side of life. In your sleep state you're there. You spend one third of your life approximately on the unembodied side of life. When you're on the unembodied side of life in the common meeting place you can meet any of your loved ones. You usually meet them when you're coming back into the awake state. In other words when you go in you to the unembodied side and you go to the level where you belong. On the unembodied side you not only learn but you also serve if you're far enough along. So usually you will have the remembrance of coming back, occasionally of going in, but especially coming back through that stage where you will very easily be able to contact your unembodied loved ones.

This happens all the time. Many times, especially in my early life, I don't try to remember my dreams now because what I do in my sleep state has nothing to do with what I do in my awake state, although it's important I realize but it isn't the same thing and therefore I don't try to remember it. Many times, especially in my early life I remember being with some of my loved ones. I'll give you a little example of this. If you heard me yesterday you heard me tell about one of my loved ones and remember I said she looked much younger that she had when she stepped over. And that's because on the other side we create through thought and we usually think of ourselves in the prime of life and therefore we usually would appear in the prime of life.

Q: What about children?

That's just what I was going to tell you about, as a matter of fact Paul, you must have read my mind. I, coming back from my sleep state seem to be pulled into a circle where there was half a dozen other people, I was the seventh one in the circle. And I realized that here was my father's family. My father and his three sisters and his brother but there was another man there. So I greeted them, I was so glad to see them and I said to them, "Who is this man you have with you?" (tape disrupted)

 

Every one has both a teacher and a guide or a guardian angel a guide is sometimes called. The guide is customarily available to you in your waking state. Not always with you necessarily but any emergency would call your guide to help you. And the guide is a good person who has offered to do this. Now the teacher knows more than you do or else that entity wouldn't be your teacher. Now you are customarily with your teacher at night in your sleep state. I could give you examples in this direction too.

For instance help, amazing help, I think I was telling a few of these things, one time I was staying on a ranch. This was before I was on my pilgrimage and I was walking very fast along a path that I knew went through and the trees met overhead and I could see the light at the end of the path and I was just walking very fast toward the light although I couldn't really see what was under my feet at all. All of a sudden a force grabbed me and stopped me and I started ahead very gingerly and there was a barbed wire and the next morning I saw what had happened. They were repairing the cattle guard at the end of the lane and they had merely stretched this wire across so the cattle couldn't stray. It was so simple, the explanation for it. But I didn't know it was there. Now that wouldn't have killed me. But I'll tell you about another time when my life may have been saved.

I was driving somebody's car and this was I believe an unfinished highway because it was such a crazy situation. You came down this steep incline and at the bottom there was a red light and you had to turn one way or the other. And cars were coming up too. I therefore, when I saw the red was light, I stepped on the brake and there was no break so I grabbed the emergency and there was no emergency. So I tried to put it into reverse to get it stopped and I couldn't. I couldn't budge it. Ahead of me was a station wagon with two little children looking out the back window so you know you couldn't hit that. So my little finite mind said get into the ditch and sideswipe the rock wall there and that's what I would have done, but I never did it. There were cars coming up you see on the other side. I never did it. I found myself turning between two cars and going up a dirt road that I didn't even know was there and it was on an incline and stopped the car.

I know that happened to me. Oh yes, you have help. There's no doubt about that, you sure do have help. You have help when it isn't your karma to encounter a thing like that, why you have help to get you out of it. Evidently that just wasn't my karma. It wasn't anything that was supposed to happen to me and so I had help. Now your teacher is with you at night and your guide during the daytime. Besides that, you may have more than one teacher and more than one guide, and if you're doing some special work you may have a helper in that regard, if you're a musician or an artist or something like that you would have a helper also in that regard. There's many special helpers besides just the guide and the teacher, but everybody has at least that.

And now we shouldn't try to get and know these entities. They don't want to be known because if you get the know them you bind yourself to them and all of a sudden you could take a much higher teacher but you've bound yourself to the one you have. Just simply let this progression take place. You don't have to do anything about it. Don't bind yourself to any of these entities, don't try to get to know them. Just let them come and go as your need changes.

Q: ?

I've come in contact with this kind of thing before and I don't like to go too deeply into it. All of this can be explained. There is an explanation for everything. You understand how the soul evolves in the first place. I don't think I've ever told this at a public meeting before but so far you've gone along and this isn't anything that should terribly disturb you. You understand that everything has some life. The mineral has some life. And of course plants have some life though they are rooted to the ground. They don't have the mobility although some of them, apparently, the air plants are trying to escape a little bit. And of course the creatures are very mobile, they can get around. And now all life evolves and we go through all these life forms you see. But let's just begin with the way we come from the animal with a group soul to the animal with an individualized soul.

Now a human soul has the lower nature because that's really the way it's often used. Spirit, which is the higher nature, soul which is the lower nature embodied. Now the group soul divides. You understand what the amoeba is, a little piece divides off and forms another amoeba, you understand that don't you? The group soul, think of the group soul now as being an amoeba. A little piece divides off and becomes the individualized soul of the animal. The animal has the animal nature which is not all the animal has. The animal also has guidance through instinct. It can never get too far off the beam like humans can because it has this guidance. Now the animal nature begins to evolve in the animals and it goes through now a round of births and deaths as soon as it becomes individualized.

Now let's take the step from this to the human expression. This is where we sometimes have trouble but actually it's very simple. Now the animal nature of the animal has evolved completely. It's ready to come into human expression and when it does, something is given and something is taken away. What is taken away is the guidance through instinct. What is given is wonderful because it is the spark of God. Now think of God as being an amoeba and think of a little piece of God dividing off to become your divine nature. This is literally a drop from the ocean of God around you. Then the next time the soul comes in it comes into human form, it comes into a body. Now in the beginning it's like an animal without instinct because the divine nature is not yet awakened and it doesn't have the guidance of instinct. That's why people do some of the most awful things, they're just like animals without instinct in the beginning until the divine nature has awakened a little bit.

Q:This individualization that takes place is constant, it doesn't revert back to the animal?

No it never does and it never reverts to the animal. There are some humps that once you have gotten over them you can never get back. Now that doesn't mean that some remembrance can't go back. And the scientists discover that remembrance you see. Oh very definitely, that remembrance. I could tell you stories along that line too, of the remembrance going back. Well I'll tell you a cute little one. A couple had a dog which was a very smart dog and it did a trick which was an unusual trick and they showed it off doing this trick. And in due course of time the dog died. Well they were grief stricken, they really loved the dog, and they buried it in the pet cemetery. And years later they were walking in the Smoky Mountain area, in a rather deprived area, and a little child came running to them and they saw that it came from a place where there were a whole lot of little children playing, a household where they must have had a dozen children. And this little child came running to them and of course they didn't want to take the child home or anything. The child could run like anything although it really couldn't talk yet. When they didn't pay enough attention to the child the child did the trick. And they knew who the child was. At first they were going to adopt it, they thought these people will let one child go undoubtedly. But then they thought, no. It's chosen this area which it can cope with. We can't take it into a more advanced area. It couldn't cope with that environment so they left it were it was. It was one of those places, they call it poor whites, in some places, they're deprived people you know. That's where it was.

Now, we've gone very deeply into metaphysics. We ought to maybe come back into things that are not so deep but you can understand how constantly souls are coming in so there's really no problem about this at all.

Q: Does individualization ...

It remains constant once it has taken place. Yes, very definitely. It remains constant. The next thing that you do of course is to go into the spiritual realm, after you had gone through the progressions of the, well the psychic side and the embodied side are part of the same whole, like the butterfly and the worm. Just think of the butterfly and the worm and you'll understand that. Then you'll go to the spiritual realm which we often call it that, and from that you will not return. But there is even more progress beyond that. We have no idea what progress is to be made in this wonderful universe.

Q: Do you believe we choose our own parents?

Yes dear, we choose our parents. Well, we have a certain amount of choice. For instance, we have to be born into a wealthy family. Well there isn't that much choice. You have a little choice. Suppose you have to be born into a poor family to learn your lessons. You have a wide choice. Now also you choose your problems. In a sense you choose them. To a limited degree. When you are ready to come in, problems to the extent that you would be able to solve them in one earth life are set before you. Here they are. Now a timid soul might say there are six problems here. I couldn't cope with that. I'll just take one. A courageous soul might say, okay I'll take all six. Let's get them over with. Then they both come in and they both have forgetfulness. Now the timid soul would get along fairly well with just one problem. The courageous soul would have one problem after another and people would say how unevolved! Look at all the trouble that soul gets into. If they both make it, the courageous soul made six times as much soul growth as the timid soul. That's why you could never judge another fellow human being. Yes, you choose not only your parents, you even to a certain extent choose your problems.

Q: Don't parents sometimes have something to do with it?

Don't parents sometimes have something to do with it? Yes, they sometimes are involved in the problems and that's why you have to choose occasionally a certain set of parents. Because they were involved before in these problems and you didn't work it out so now again you need to choose them. In this you need to be close to them. For instance, the woman who was my mother in the last embodiment was my father's oldest sister, my aunt in this embodiment. She was, I think I'd have chosen her as a mother but she was an unmarried woman, but I was in her family just the same because my father was her brother. So you sometimes, in a round about way, you get to them.

Q: Your understanding, Peace, you have not gotten from books. It all comes from within you as a mystic, your understanding of all this?

Yes. Mine is from the inside this is true. You see there are two ways if getting it. You can get it from books. And most people do. They read and read and read and a few of the things that they read get confirmation. Not all of them. A great deal of what you get from the books gets only to the surface level which I call knowledge. It leads to a believing but you do not necessarily act upon that at this surface level. So a lot of what you read in books does not get a confirmation. But if it does get a confirmation, it gets to the same deep level as a direct perception. Now mine is the way of a direct perception.

Q: When you say confirmation do you mean within yourself?

Oh yes, it comes through the divine nature just the same as a direct perception comes through the divine nature. And yes, mine is definitely primarily the inner way this is true. Now whether it is the confirmation or the direct perception it gets you to a deeper level which I call wisdom. It leads to a knowing and you act upon it and there is complete clarity and understanding. You can explain it and discuss it. YOu see your own divine nature is a drop from the ocean of divine essence around you and has access to the ocean. And don't forget that from that source came all inspired writing in the first place and somebody wrote it down. And you yourself can reach out directly into that source and that does happen to be my way. But the other way is a valid way also. If you are a scholar, I would say to you read many books so that you will contact many points of view and will have to form your own opinions or get your own confirmations in the end. Don't just take one book because that may be wrong. But rather a whole lot so that you will get a variety of opinions and eventually you will get confirmations of your own because the confirmations or the direct perceptions are the only things which will really affect your life.

Q: When you have a problem and have the impression to look at a book and you can turn right to the page that will answer your question.

Well you can sometimes do that, this is true. You see our lives are ordered and arranged for us in many beautiful, beautiful ways. Constantly. I told a little bit yesterday about how I was prepared for the pilgrimage and even my feet had been prepared for the pilgrimage. So it is that many times, if you need an answer you will be able to just simply open the book and there will be your answer. I can remember that a woman was telling me this who had, let's see, her boyfriend had jilted her before marriage and she had attempted suicide and she had been put into this institution to keep her from harming herself. And she said she woke up one night and one hand was completely out of control. She was terrified and the hand kept pointing and she followed where it pointed and it went right to a book in the big library there and so she took down the book and she opened the book and then it pointed to something and that explained what had happened to her, that an entity had taken hold of her hand and the entity was one who had actually succeeded in suicide and wanted her to do some things that it had been unable to do and they were good things. And so that immediately gave her something to take an interest in and so she then did these things and came out of this depressed state she was in and so forth.

I wouldn't say anybody should desire a thing like this but I was just telling you that it took down a book and she did just exactly this, she opened it to exactly the right place and then it pointed to the paragraph that explained what had happened to her and then there was a paper and pencil on the table there and then it wrote down the story of what this was. Now, frankly I don't say anybody should ever desire this because there is such a thing as automatic writing that people sometimes try to encourage. Always remember that the least evolved are the most anxious to make communication. When your calling them you're getting the least evolved and they'll give any names to get your attention. So if it happens that's one thing and if you call them it's another. You know how many people have been able, in a time of great crisis, to take down say the bible and open it to just the right passage to get the strength they needed. And it happens all the time. How is this done? Well we have constant help of course.

Now I've gone through, maybe some of you have gone through, finding lost objects. You see in our spiritual growing up and even beyond it we go through one experience after another. Then an inkling of that experience and then it becomes very clear and at the time it becomes very clear if you concentrate on it and do not commercial on it, you can retain it but off you go on this side track, you see, and you spend the rest of your life finding lost objects or whatever it is that your side tracked on. This is not the best way to grow spiritually of course, to get side tracked and if you commercialize on it you'll lose it anyhow unless it's contact with the lower psychic realms. They don't care, you can commercialize on it and stay in contact with the lower psychic realms but nothing high. But if you're going to let this go and not pay attention to it, let yourself go through it, you will never completely lose it, it will return but only when there is a reason for it. So there was a time when I could ***find any lost object anywhere. And of course I certainly should not have found anybody else's lost objects because these were problems that were set before them for their spiritual growth. Of course I don't do this but I still find something for myself every once in awhile. First, one time I needed a dictionary and I didn't have a dictionary and my hostess was out. I went right to the hall closet, there were some books there, old books, and I took down the dictionary and took it in and used it and it was lying there on my table where I was typing and my hostess came in and said, "You carry a dictionary with you." And I said, "Of course not, that's out of your hall closet." She didn't even know it was there among those old books. But I was taken right to it because at that point I needed it.

And then on the other hand, one time I was washing clothes and I was looking for some kind of washing powder that was better than that kind of perfumed soap they had in the bathroom there for washing clothes. But I knew there wasn't any in the house so there wasn't any use looking for them. See sometimes something like that will happen. In a tiny little thing, an inconsequential thing like that. Sometimes you just know. When she came home I asked her about it and she said, "Yes, we don't use that, we just use soap and we usually just use odds and ends of soap for washing. So she didn't really have any in the house.

This I realize perfectly, and I don't think we should ever make a big thing out of any of this phenomena but it does happen. Finding lost objects, knowing what people are thinking, seeing past lives, just all this. As you go on you're going to have an inkling of these things. It's natural. Seeing auras and whatever, many of these experiences.

Q: What about those of us who don't have such experiences. Are we less developed than those who do?

Sometimes I say be thankful, because you have no idea how disturbing these things are to many people. You see most people get so hung up with phenomena they mistake the phenomena for the experience. It's too bad. So I almost say if you don't have them be thankful. Because they often inhibit spiritual growth. Actually you shouldn't have them until after you have found inner peace or are almost there, at least are on the plateaus. Because then they won't disturb you. I didn't have them you see until I came to...

Q: Yes, but there's people who do have them and yet they don't express them in other ways but they have inner peace.

Those people who have them before they have inner peace usually are terribly disturbed by them to the extent that some of them, one can find in the mental hospitals. Now sometimes you tore yourself apart in a prior earth life and you come in torn apart and it's difficult. You might have seizures, whatever. Some people also tear themselves apart in this earth life.

For instance I met a young man in Arizona. This was a sad thing because he was very young and had such potential. But he wanted to come out of his body and see his body lying there. Can you imagine anybody desiring a thing like that? It happens occasionally when you come back from your sleep state. But imagine desiring a thing like that. And so he went to somebody who culd induce this experience and in due time he came out of his body and he saw his body lying there. But he's never been able to attain complete control of his body since. He now has what is sometimes called seizures. He'll walk around the block but he won't cross the street because he's afraid he'll fall down in front of a car. He'll go out in a car. He told me when I talked to him, he had had a seizure in the morning, I talked to him in the afternoon, and he said he had at least one a day and sometimes two or three. He doesn't stiffen like some of them do, he simply collapses, he departs from control of his body. He'll be walking along and all of a sudden he'll just faint, or I don't want to call it that, he'll just colapse. Now he was one who desired phenomena, finally he got it, and he paid fo it the rest of his earth life.

Do you know that old hym, "I do not ask to see the distant scene, one step enough for me." If only we could take that to heart. Another thing we do, you see material well being and spiritual well being need to remain in harmony as I pointed out this morning. And some of us get so way ahead in material well being. Now that's another thing that happens, it happens very frequently in our culture which is materialisticallly minded. But every once in awhile I'll meet somebody and that person is well balanced. That person isn't so highly evolved and yet inner and outer well being are beautifully balanced in that life and you notice the harmony. ANd of course since I recognize that people are at very varied stages of development I think it's just wonderful. Here's a person who's at balance at his or her level. Of course many people have not even done the spiritual growing up. They haven't even made teh mental and emotional growing up and if they're trying in this state to attain these experiences they're just going to tear themselves to pieces. That's why that guru said 7 year purification period before I'll even take you as a student. You see, this young man for instance, this young man physically, he was a heavy flesh eater, he smoked, he drank alcohol and besides that he treated people, he had all sorts of negative emotions and so no wonder when he went into these practices that induced this experience he simply tore himself apart.

So that hymn, that's what we need to remember. You can say, wherever you are, you can be in harmony. "Until with thee I will one will." If you just keep willing to do God's will. You'll be all right. YOur life will go along smoothly. You'll make it so much easier for yourself. Now that we realize, I'm sure all of us in this room realize, that there is spiritual growing up to do as well as the other growing up and we also realize how varied human beings are in their spiritual growing up. When we realize this I think we can refrain from being terribly impatient about it. The earth life is a tiny moment in eternity with much after and before. A tiny moment in eternity and yet it's so important. And so the thing to do is to live it to the best of your ability. Make as much growth as you can in this earth life, the same as if you were in a graded school. Do the best you can in the grade you are in and don't wish to be in a grade way off in the blue somewhere because you're going to have to go through one grade after another in order to get there. Just let that happen and be happy in the grade where you are. That's what I would say to people. Yet people divide themselves up. For instance, if you're here and you stayed to hear me talk about these things you definately are in a higher grade already. You're still a little varied of course, it's natural, but you are in a higher grade than those people who are listening to a soap opera on television or something like that at the present time.

Q: Is it possible to keep these bodies and they become perfect and you would come down again and take

All these things are possible but how desireable is another - you see matter and energy are interchangeable. And just as we see matter becoming energy in the burning process, so we can see energy becoming matter in any kind of a materialization process. But what advantage would it be for me to go, to look like a young girl? Why people wouldn't want to listen to me. They would say what does she know? Look how young she is. You see, of what advantage would that be to me? It's a much greater advantage in the work I have to do for me to have silver hair. Then people say, well she's lived a long time maybe she does know something.

Q: Well I mean that you don't have to die, that you don't have to go through that experience.

Oh you mean translation. In other words the matter would become energy and you take your body with you. But to me that's an undue preoccupation with the clay garment. You see it's just like saying when I'm done with this shirt should I take this shirt with me, so I couldn't care less if I take my body with me or not. All these things, while they are not impossible, certainly they aren't anything anybody should desire. Imagine desiring such phenomena. The thing you should desire, actually you should desire only God, nothing more. This should be your only desire.

I can remember one woman who was working on translation. She...(blocked out)

Do you know something you wouldn't do anyhow. Do you know love is something if you give it away you'll end up having more? It's real cute. I'm not a singer but it goes, "Love is something if you give it away, give it away, give it away, Love is something if you give it away you'll end up having more. It's just like a lucky penny, hold it tight and you won't have any. Lend it, spend it, and you'll have so many, they'll roll all over the floor."

Sing "Sweep Over My Soul"

I think I'll begin by telling about the prison experiences. I didn't get to that yet and the first experience in a sense deals with world peace.

This morning I think I will start with the prison experiences. The first prison experience does have something to do with world peace. Because I think I was originally questioned because I started off when the Korean war was still on and they wondered what in the world this peace pilgrim was and they wondered what it was all about. In any case, the very first year of my journey I had this wonderful experience. Now very few people, I suspect that practically nobody in this room has ever been locked into a prison. It would be very rare for some of us to have actually been locked into a prison. But do you know that I was actually locked into a prison for a whole day. Oh it was so interesting. Why there's a lot of people live there you know and you can't really get the feel of how they live until you have yourself been locked in. So I have had that very interesting experience and I'm going to tell you about it.

I was picked up for vagrancy. Now I have no money and therefore unless I am a religious pilgrim I am considered a vagrant in some places. Now if I had belonged to some denomination it would have been very easy to identify myself as a religious pilgrim. But I do not belong to a denomination, I never have belonged to a denomination, and therefore it was not known immediately whether I could be considered a religious pilgrim and that led to this very interesting experience.

I went through the regular routine, they finger printed me, and then when I was looking at how black my fingers were they took a chemical and they got it off just like that. Then they hung a number around my neck and you've seen in a post office, you've seen - I mean they look so mad, so I thought let me be different! So I smiled as sweetly as I could. There's one smiling face in the rogue's gallery.

Then they questioned me. Now they seated me under a rather big, strong light. Now I think this strong light is supposed to have a psychological effect on the one who sits under it. But I kept thinking, "Do they think that's a strong light? They should see the lights at the television stations." Let me tell you at that time they really were strong. They didn't have the new methods that they have now. That was twenty years ago. And so two men started to question me. They first asked me if I would answer questions. And I said, "Certainly I will answer your questions. Not because you are law enforcement authorities but because you are fellow human beings. I answer the questions of all my fellow human beings." And I said, "Whatever you are in your official capacity you're also a human being. And if we were to talk together human being to human being we would really get much farther much faster." And we ended up that way, talking about the purposes of the pilgrimage.

But I think they had a regular routine that they went through and it was very interesting. First a confusing technique. One would fire a question at me and before I could answer it the other would fire a question at me and I had to keep saying, "If you would pardon me just a moment while I answer this gentleman's question then I will answer your question." Well this wasn't terribly meaningful, they already really knew these things they were asking. In any case, they then came to some very interesting questions. They asked me to define God. Define prayer. Define good and bad. And then they started to refer to my peace pilgrimage and they started to refer to peace. So defining physical violence as being intent to hurt somebody, they said, "Would you under any circumstances use or sanction the use of physical violence?" And I said no.

"Why?"

"This is contrary to God's laws and I would rather have God on my side than any power on earth." And I told them about the time I was hit by the psychologically disturbed teen age boy. Of course because I was able to face his hatred with love he experienced remorse. His entire life was changed and he never was violent again. And then they said,

"But suppose to defend a loved one it were necessary?" I said,

"I don't believe a loved one by disobeying God's laws. Then I would lose God's protection for my loved one and myself." And I told them about the time I had to defend that frail little eight year old girl against a large man who was about to beat her. Now most of you had heard me tell that story and you've heard me tell how I did put my body across the corner between the man and the girl because the girl was terrified and attracting things which were not good. And I have never felt such power in my body as when I looked at that poor, psychologically sick man with loving compassion. He stopped dead in his tracks, looked at me for quite while, then turned around and walked away and the girl was safe. Then they said to me,

"If you had to choose between killing and being killed, which would you choose."

"Oh," I said, "I don't believe I would have to make such a choice. Not as long as my life remains in harmony with God's will. Not unless I might possibly be called to be a martyr which is a very rare calling. It's a very high calling but I don't think it is my calling." And I said, "If I had to choose between killing and being killed naturally I would choose being killed rather than killing. In any case where I had to choose between harming and being harmed I would always choose being harmed rather than harming someone else." And they said,

"Could you give a logical explanation of such an attitude?"

Now if it's logical that self centered nature has to understand it. So here I was explaining the viewpoint of the God centered nature so that the self centered would understand it. And I said, "Of course you realize that I refrain from violence because I wish to remain in harmony with God's will. But I can never the less explain it even from a self centered viewpoint. After all I am not this body. I am only wearing this body. I am that which activates this body. That is the reality. Now if I am killed, it destroys merely the transient body, the transient garment of clay which I am wearing. But if I kill, it injures the reality which can only be injured by my own wrong act." Let me tell you, they put me down as having a religious basis for my peace witness. But suppose I had said, "Well after all you've heard of self-defense. Even the law recognizes self-defense." This might have been considered legal but not religious. They have a very high criterion actually by which to evaluate.

However this wasn't the end of the experience. They then, after our lovely talk together, they then took my entire tunic with the things in the pockets, to search these things in my pockets. They then put me in this big inner room with cell blocks all around and there were probably as many women in that room as there are people in this room. As I walked in I said to myself, "Peace Pilgrim, you have dedicated your life to service. Where could you find a better field of service." As I came in one of the girls said,

"Gee, you're a funny one. You're the first one ever came in smiling. Most of them come in crying or cursing." And I said,

"Girls, we have a day off. Now if you had a day off at home wouldn't you try to do something worthwhile with that day? Let's try to do something worthwhile with this wonderful day we have before us." And they said,

"Yea, let's. What'll we do?" So we sang some songs.. That always lifts the spirit. And we did some simple little exercises. I showed them the fountain of love exercise which I will eventually show you. They're energizing exercises which allow you to plug in for a few moments to the source of universal energy. Then I talked to them about the steps toward inner peace. Not too different from what I talk to you about yesterday morning. The steps toward inner peace. And I told them that anything they needed really to do to find inner peace they would be able to do right there behind prison bars. It could be the most wonderful time of their lives. It could be a time they would look back upon with thankfulness because it was for them a time for spiritual growth. And you know they were interested, they asked questions, I'll just never forget that day. It was just beautiful.

I have been in women's prisons where they left me alone with the women and it was beautiful but not quite as beautiful as when I was one of them. I have also spoken in men's prisons because to me these are God's children too. Remember, "In so far as you have done unto the least of these you have also done unto me." And so the way we treat even the least. I personally think we are all children of God, capable of acting that way, with the divine spark within us whether we are behind prison bars or outside. So we had a lovely day. At the end of the day they changed matrons. And the girls said when they saw who was coming on,

"Oh she's a horrible person. Don't even speak to her." But I know there's good in everybody so I did talk to her and I discovered that she didn't always feel so well. So that's why she was a bit cross sometimes. So I said to her that night,

"Well I've already talked it over with the girls and I've discovered you have a full house here and there really isn't any extra bed. But that's all right. I can sleep comfortably on this wooden bench. I'm quite used to such things. But no sir. She had them bring in a cot with clean sheets. I had a warm shower with a clean towel, all the comforts of home.

The next morning they took me down into court and of course I was looking forward to another day with the girls so I was feeling real good. I remember the policeman who took me down to court because he had a great big gun at his side. So I said to him, "If I were to try to run away would you shoot me?" And he said, "No, I never shoot anything I can catch." We then got into the anteroom of the court room and here was one of these big men who had questioned me the day before. And I felt very friendly toward him so I said to him very brightly, "Good morning!" And he looked at me in some surprise and he said to me, "Well you don't seem any the worse for your day in prison." I said, "Oh you can imprison the body but not the spirit!" And this is true. I never felt imprisoned. No bars will imprison you unless you imprison yourself.

And then of course they let me go. They said they had discovered I did indeed have a religious basis for my peace witness and that I would be considered a religious pilgrim rather than a vagrant and that I could refer to this investigation any time. And I have done it a couple of times when I was in too much of a hurry, I had speaking engagements and couldn't tarry to be investigated again. So I just told them to call up and one time it took a little longer but one time it took only five minutes for them to call up and find out that I had been considered a religious pilgrim. Now one time I just didn't even attempt to refer to this investigation and I know now that there was a reason for it.

One time, and it was a little bit later, I don't consider it one of my tests, I had already been tested, I was walking through an isolated section of the country out from a little town. This young policeman, I guess he thought he was protective custody, it seemed so because they never tried me there. They just let me go in the morning. In any case he took me into this town jail and what a difference. What a difference between the other one which maintained federal standards and this one which was just a town jail. The floor of the jail was littered with old newspapers and cigarette butts and every old thing. The accommodations consisted of one single mattress on the floor and four ragged blankets. There were two woman trying to sleep together on that single mattress. They told me there had been eight women in that cell the night before with these accommodations. Well There's really a kind of nice feeling amongst prisoners as a whole and they said to me, "Well, you'll need to have two blankets because you have to sleep on the floor," so they each gave me a blanket and then I took a piece of newspaper and cleared a place on the floor and out one blanket down and the other one over me and I slept comfortably enough that night. It wasn't the first time I had ever slept on a cement nor the last.

And in the morning when I woke up I saw a man staring through the bars and so I said to him, "What time does court convene?" He said, "I don't know." I said, "Well, aren't you a policeman?" He said, "No, I just like to look at the girls." It was one of the town sports. You could come in right off the streets and see what they got in there today. Let's go look at the girls.

The one woman was middle age. She was in for being drunk and disorderly in public and it was her seventh offense and she was a little used to this way of life. But the other was an eighteen year old girl and she thought her entire life was ruined. She was in for vagrancy, she hadn't done anything so terrible. But anyway she thought her entire life was ruined because of this prison experience. "Why," I said to her, "It's my second time and I certainly don't think my life is ruined." Got her all cheered up you know and we discussed what she would do when she got out. She was to get out that day or the next day. So then a man came on, they changed guards, and that man looked in at me and he said, "What are you doing in there? Why I heard you on the radio. I saw your picture in the paper." They just simply let me go. They didn't even try me. And I got them a broom from the man who slept up so they could sweep out their cell. I got them a comb. Why they'd been in there for a week without a comb. Their hair was all matted. I just went to the man at the desk and I said "The last place I was they let me keep my comb. I think you're supposed to let the women keep a comb. So he went to their little brown bag and took out their combs and let me take them to them.

This eighteen year old girl was a deeply religious girl and she had been desperately praying for help and I believe that I was picked up off the highway that night and sent behind prison bars in answer to her prayer. So you can see that was a completely different prison experience. Not my test, but an answer to a young girl's prayer.

Now let's get to the subject we're supposed to be discussing this morning. That is peace in the world - a formula for world peace. Now I hope that none of you good peace workers will in any way stop working because there is some kind of a cease fire in Viet Nam and we're getting out. There is still some fighting as far as the Vietnamese are concerned and of course we are still bombing, according to last night's news, both Laos and Cambodia so we're not actually completely at peace yet.

Q: I think on the 1O o'clock news it said we were on the verge of a cease fire in Laos.

I hope so. I certainly hope so. But you see we've almost forgotten this because the Vietnamese business is for us apparently over. As I said over the air this morning, they've done it in just about exactly the way that I said years ago it could have been done before all the killing had taken place. You can always see there is only one way that something can be done and that's the right way. The way according to God's laws and if you try to do it any other way you are only going to have trouble.

How many of you heard the radio program this morning? A lot of you did and a lot of you didn't. But I said any time we wanted to we could stop all bombing, a cease fire, and permit a group of neutrals to come into Viet Nam, they had already offered, to supervise the holding of the nation wide election that should have been held in 1956 according to the Geneva Convention which we said we would honor. Also to supervise the exchange of prisoners of war and other details. Then we should move completely and absolutely out which is exactly what we're doing now and when the details have been taken care of the neutrals would finally leave also and Viet Nam would be left in the hands of their own elected representatives which would be a victory for peace and for the democratic way. And I think we all realize that there is a segment of people that we don't usually think of who would take part in these elections. That segment of people is the Buddhists - one third of the people in all of Viet Nam are Buddhists and are not fighting at all. Buddhists do not fight. Buddha forbids them to fight, to kill. So did Jesus but you see the Christians, well the Christians did follow the teachings of Jesus in the early part of the Christian era, the early Christians followed the teachings of Jesus up until the time of Constantine, they did. And the Hindus pretty much follow this tradition that they are not to kill. So anyway the Buddhists are being killed though they are not killing.

Did I tell you here about the four pronouncements of the Buddha? I think it's very interesting. I was very interested to read them. I understand that through the Christian peace movement, the Fellowship of Reconciliation and also through Clergy and Laymen which has been a very active peace group, the Buddhists sent their pronouncement. They have 4 points. One is how they should feel about it. Never to hate those who kill us. Two is what they should do about it. Never to use violence against violence. Three is what they should do about the people who are killing around them. To seek to enlighten opponents, not to crush them. Four is what they should do about us. To seek to inform those whose actions bring suffering to us and to others. In fact there was more to that point saying they realize that we had very kind hearts and if we really understand the situation we would not be over there killing them. Of course at the end of the war practically all Americans had turned toward peace.

In any case these will participate in the elections so it won't only be, well some would say the leftist forces and the rightist forces but it will also be this balancing force, the Buddhists, that will participate in the elections in Viet Nam and we will see very shortly, I'm sure, what the outcome is. However, more than just working on alleviating the present symptoms of our terrible immaturity which manifests itself in many parts of the world, for instance our still bombing Laos and Cambodia, the still unpeaceful situation in the Middle East, the still unpeaceful situation in the British Isles and of course the still unpeaceful situations within our own country. For instance is some of our schools. There's more than just working on these particular situations although of course they do need to be worked on.

Also, in general you can work for peace in at least three different ways and let's discuss them. I know some will say the first thing we need to do is to adjust our economy to a peace time economy and this is true, we will. We will need to do this. And some will say we'll have to get rid of our bases. I believe Humphrey said we had approximately 4,OOO bases throughout the world and ten percent were major bases, that would be about 4OO. We'll have to take care of things like that. Then the fact we mentioned over the air this morning that I think we need to take all profit out of war. The government would have to take care of all this at no profit so that nobody would be making any money whatsoever on any war supplies so that we wouldn't have this mercenary push, this materialistic push, in the direction of at least war prevention which of course leads to war.

Now all of us, I recognize, now I'm not belittling this, but I'm still saying that in general there are three other ways. One is world peace through world law. Just as the smaller units, the states, gave up to the larger unit, the United States, the right to make war. You just couldn't imagine Florida declaring war on Georgia could you? So the smaller units the nations, are moving toward the point where they will be able to give up to I hope a very improved United Nations, one single right which is the right to make war. Now this is a possibility. We've been moving in this direction for a long time. When People said that our states could get together into a nation there were those who said this is absolutely impossible. They could never get together into a nation, they think so differently and so on. But finally they did. It took a little while but they did.

Q: Would it be more logical for the smaller nations to do this before the super powers or all at once?

Well I imagine people will do it all at once. I think that's how we will do it. You know, I was talking to a group of law students at a college and I said, "My goodness, how do I get to this class. I can't really say anything of great relevance because I don't know that much about law. Not any more than the ordinary person does." But somebody mentioned the United Nations and I said (tape unclear)... one vote from every nation. And then it dawned on us that this wouldn't satisfy the large nations. So somebody said, "According to population - another house according to population." Fine, we'll have a second house according to population. Then it dawned on us that this wouldn't satisfy us, and we being the most influential nation in the world today, undoubtedly we would need to be satisfied or we wouldn't be an effective United Nations. So this is what we came up with and of course everybody laughs at this - another house according to contribution because we, being 6 percent of the people and controlling 6O percent of the wealth of the world would be the only ones who could really afford to pay for it so we would excel in that house. And others would probably contribute the minimum so they could be represented. And with these three houses we might be able to somehow lift into an actual world authority. Now although people laugh at this nobody has ever come up with a better idea as to how it could practically be done, and so we may come to a thing like that yet. I'm not sure but it's a possibility that we might come to a thing like that. It would certainly encourage contributions to the United Nations because the more you contributed the more power you would have in that third house.

Now the United Nations, I would say, would become merely a peace keeping group. This is what I would think of it as. I would think of our huge military establishment as being perhaps in the adjustment period, used for good work. Maybe you heard me say over the radio, that I would say to the air force, "It's your job to get rid of air pollution," I would say to the navy, "It's your job to get rid of water pollution," I'd let the army work on the depleted farm land and the marines who are used to remote jobs, I would let them work on the despoiled forests. In other words just give them good work to do. Useful, necessary work to do so that in the adjustment of our economy to a peace time situation it would be cushioned by the fact that this establishment would now be doing good work and could remain a little bit longer until out economy could be adjusted. I'm suggesting this and again people laugh at this of course. I can see how they would. And yet an air force officer said to me one day, "Let me tell you we are working on air pollution." So who knows.

In any case I believe that both factions can work effectively on helping the United Nations to become an effective world government. And I'll tell you why both factions can work. You see there are the centralists who are working to improve the United Nations. But there are also the decentralists. Some of them don't even believe in the United Nations. In any case, the decentralists would believe that every problem that can be fairly and efficiently handled at a grass roots level should be handled there because people have more control over their affairs at a grass roots level and I frankly tend in that direction you see.

However I also see the other side of the picture. Now both of these can work together very effectively. The decentralists would be working to see that every possible problem that can be solved at a grass roots level is solved at a grass roots level. And only delegated to a higher authority if it can't be fairly and efficiently be solved at a lower level. So you see if this principle were adhered to the United Nations would become merely a peace keeping group. Now as long as we're as immature as we are I recognize that it might have some kind of a police force. But remember how different a police force is from a military force. A miliary force acts against whole populations. A police force acts only against individual offenders. It's quite different you see from the military.

Some kind of a police force I imagine so long as we're as immature as we are but also a peace force to deal with war prevention. Now war prevention which is the pattern of the future, means getting into any situation where trouble is just beginning to remedy the cause of the trouble before strife develops. Now this is very important. Our own peace corps made a little beginning in this direction. I notice that my foreign correspondents always mention as a good the peace corps. This is one thing they do commend us for. And of course they also commend us for things like the nuclear test ban agreement. Things like that.

Then I believe this peace corps or whatever you want to call it would help every group of people into a position where they could help themselves. In other words, help every group of people in the world into a position where they can supply for themselves the basic necessities of life. Not necessarily our standard of living. There are plenty of people who wouldn't want to be bothered with our standard of living. But their standard of living and remember what I said - help them to help themselves. No permanent handouts. You're doing great injury to a person when you give a permanent handout. Why they deteriorate psychologically if they can't contribute constructively to the society in which they live. You're doing great harm when you give a permanent handout. But helping people to help themselves. This is of course what it would deal with.

Now there are two other ways of working for people. One of them is more peaceful example for the little ones and this is very important. There are small groups of people in this world who attain a peaceful situation and they do it by more peaceful example for the little children.

Now I was taught sets of opposites. I told you about the one set of opposites which confused me. I was taught on the one hand to believe that I should be generous and unselfish. And on the other hand I was taught to believe that if I wanted to be successful I needed to get out there and grab more than my share of this world's goods and that confused me up to 35 years ago. But there's another set of opposites that I was taught that confuses a lot of people but luckily it didn't confuse me. Occasionally these things don't take. I was taught on the one hand to believe that I should be kind and loving and never hurt anybody but on the other hand I was also taught to believe that if so ordered it was indeed honorable to maim and kill people in war. That one didn't take you see, I never believed there was any time under any circumstances when it would be right for me to hurt anybody. So I had no confusion her whatsoever. But I have deep compassion for those who do because I was confused of course by that other set of opposites.

Now in these cultures the people are not confused by these sets of opposites. They are taught only, the little children are taught only to be kind and loving and never hurt anybody and so there is no confusion in their lives. They act this way because most people act all their lives according to those early trainings. The aborigines of Australia for instance. I talked to a college professor who had lived among them for years and he said among them there isn't even a word for war. And the killing or hurting of man by man is unknown. Because of different training from a little child on. Nobody has ever been hurt by one of our Hopi Indians. Same story. From a little child on they are trained to be peaceful. How about our Amish people in Pennsylvania. Why do you suppose they want their own schools? Even after they come out of the home and go into school they want to continue this peaceful early training. And their people are peaceful. They never depart from this way.

So this is definitely another way to work for peace. And that is the early training of little children. And progress has been made on this. They worked on children's literature. I can remember when I first started on my pilgrimage the children's literature was simply atrocious. You could look through a comic book years ago and it told you exactly how to commit a murder. All the steps. It was just awful. You know we've cleaned up, I think mostly parents groups have worked on these things. You'll notice that the children's literature, comic books, deal mostly with animal stories and things that don't have to do with this kind of violence anymore.

Then do you realize that parents groups have also been working on children's play things. Mattell, which is the largest toy manufacturer in the world, headquartered in California, has discontinued its entire line of toy implements of destruction. And if you look at the Sears Catalog which affects a lot of people, you will notice that there are no toy implements of destruction displayed. So there's some work that has been done on the play things. Now they're working on the films and more work needs to be done of course on the films.

That gets me to the third way to work for peace which is primarily my way. That is to inspire as many people as possible to find as much inner peace as possible so they will be peaceful people and peace makers. Now look ahead to the time when enough of us have found enough inner peace to effect for the better our institutions. Institution of education, political institutions, institution of radio and television.

Then the bettered institutions will in turn through better example effect for the better all who are still immature. For instance, instead of the hero shooting the villain on television which teaches the little child who watches that shooting people is heroic. He just saw the hero do it. Effective. It seemed to work. Acceptable. He was well thought of afterward. The little child will see a different hero image. He will see the hero transform the villain and bring him to a good life.

I could write them some scenarios. The last scene for instance, the hero would have his arm around the villain and be taking the villain maybe into his church or something like that. Beautiful scenarios and of course it can be done and it's very challenging. Or maybe you would see the hero being of service in some way to his fellow human beings. Among the little children the one who was of the greatest service would be considered the biggest hero. Instead of the children playing, "Bang! Bang! You're dead," they might be playing, do you know what the ship of hope is? It goes to help where help is needed. So they could be playing ship of hope. "Oh quickly! There's been an earthquake in Central America. Let's get the Ship of Hope over there and save these people. Let's get them out!" It could be much more to it than bang, bang, you're dead. Much more constructive.

So if we can just come to the point where enough of us can have enough inner peace to effect for the better the institutions we'll really have it made. And of course the immature are not all little children. But at that point all immature people will be effected for the better. So that's the other way of working for peace and the way in which I primarily work.

Now don't forget if you want to work for peace all you have to do is pray about it and you will be motivated to work in some way according to your calling. But don't forget this - it's important in this day and age for people to work for a better world for peace and understanding and brotherhood and I'll tell you why. We're making a choice in our world today which is a written history of mankind which has never been made before. We're making a choice between at the worst, a war using modern weapons which could destroy all life on earth. This is possible using nuclear weapons and so on; and an age which would seem to us to be a golden age, an age of peace. We can't imagine such an age now but this is a possibility. Both possibilities exist now. And we walk a knife's edge as my message says between complete chaos and a golden age.

Now everybody helps to make this choice and I'll tell you why. Because the trend of things, the tide of world affairs is still drifting in the direction of war and destruction. We're still heavily armed; we haven't attained disarmament yet. The drift is still in that direction. So all who do nothing are definitely choosing by what we used to call sins of omission to let things drift toward destruction. And those who want to choose peace and a better way of life must do something meaningful in that direction. Must become a part of this wonderful stirring and awakening in the direction of peace which has begun and is accelerating and help to accelerate it sufficiently to actually turn the tide. It's a difficult thing to do but it can be done.

Out of the dark ages came the renaissance and out of the chaos of our time can come a new renaissance and a golden age of peace which we cannot now even imagine. This is the possibility which exists now and it's up to us, to the people who live in the world right now to make this choice. And it's no accident that we are living in the world right now. No accident. Everything happens according to plan and we're the ones that are therefore needing to do this - to make the turn in the direction of peace and a better way of life. We believe we're already turned in that direction. Our only difficulty now is the difficulty that their are some who believe that you can overturn evil with more evil. This is our difficulty. There are still some who believe that the end justifies the means. Whereas actually you can only overcome evil with good. The means determines the end.

That's where we are now. We're making this choice. By the way let me add to this audience, how many of you believe that the means shape the end, that the means determine the end and only a good means determines a good end? Who believes that? Why it's practically the whole audience. In a group like this practically the whole audience are on the side which will work toward peace and I'm very grateful for that. We just have to put it into practice now in all walks of life.

[ Continued on Part III ]

Transcripts Index  ||  Peace Pilgirm Home

Page created by Bruce Nichols
Last Revision 10/20/00